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Blasted
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Post by Blasted »

Crissa wrote: Also, chimpanzees do eat meat.

-Crissa
While chimpanzees mainly eat fruit and nuts, they certainly eat meat:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19352509 - The trade of meat for sex

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18508895 - Chimps get sick from their prey
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17916449

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17906844 - They kill lots of monkeys for food

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17900659 - They scavenge from carcasses

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17320393 - They use weapons for hunting prey

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17148274 - They hunt stupid animals

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/914124 - They steal meat from baboons

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12566760 - They eat meat.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus »

I've been working my way through the court ruling on Prop 8. It has some lovely quotable lines in it.

No wonder it passed. The defenders of Prop 8 were imbeciles, and not only did they hurt their cause, they managed to hurt their cause while literallly saying nice things about the opposing side's ideas.

Here's some highlights from just the first seventy pages. Spoilered, it's long.
Proponent Hak-Shing William Tam testified about his role
in the Proposition 8 campaign. Tam spent substantial time, effort
and resources campaigning for Proposition 8. As of July 2007, Tam
was working with Protect Marriage to put Proposition 8 on the
November 2008 ballot. Tr 1900:13-18. Tam testified that he is the
secretary of the America Return to God Prayer Movement, which
operates the website “1man1woman.net.” Tr 1916:3-24.
1man1woman.net encouraged voters to support Proposition 8 on
grounds that homosexuals are twelve times more likely to molest
children, Tr 1919:3-1922:21, and because Proposition 8 will cause
states one-by-one to fall into Satan’s hands, Tr 1928:6-13. Tam
identified NARTH (the National Association for Research and Therapy
of Homosexuality) as the source of information about homosexuality,
because he “believe in what they say.” Tr 1939:1-9. Tam
identified “the internet” as the source of information connecting
same-sex marriage to polygamy and incest. Tr 1957:2-12. Protect
Marriage relied on Tam and, through Tam, used the website
1man1woman.net as part of the Protect Marriage Asian/Pacific
Islander outreach.

Katami and Stier testified about the effect Proposition 8
campaign advertisements had on their well-being. Katami explained
that he was angry and upset at the idea that children needed to be
protected from him. After watching a Proposition 8 campaign
message, PX0401 (Video, Tony Perkins, Miles McPherson, and Ron
Prentice Asking for Support of Proposition 8), Katami stated that
“it just demeans you. It just makes you feel like people are
putting efforts into discriminating against you.” Tr 108:14-16.
Stier, as the mother of four children, was especially disturbed at
the message that Proposition 8 had something to do with protecting
children. She felt the campaign messages were “used to sort of try
to educate people or convince people that there was a great evil to
be feared and that evil must be stopped and that evil is us, I
guess. * * * And the very notion that I could be part of what
others need to protect their children from was just —— it was more
than upsetting. It was sickening, truly. I felt sickened by that
campaign.”

For the reasons stated in the sections that follow, the
evidence presented at trial fatally undermines the premises
underlying proponents’ proffered rationales for Proposition 8. An
initiative measure adopted by the voters deserves great respect.
The considered views and opinions of even the most highly qualified
scholars and experts seldom outweigh the determinations of the
voters. When challenged, however, the voters’ determinations must
find at least some support in evidence. This is especially so when
those determinations enact into law classifications of persons.
Conjecture, speculation and fears are not enough. Still less will
the moral disapprobation of a group or class of citizens suffice,
no matter how large the majority that shares that view. The
evidence demonstrated beyond serious reckoning that Proposition 8
finds support only in such disapproval. As such, Proposition 8 is
beyond the constitutional reach of the voters or their
representatives.

Proponents called two witnesses:
1. David Blankenhorn, founder and president of the Institute for
American Values, testified on marriage, fatherhood and family
structure. Plaintiffs objected to Blankenhorn’s qualification
as an expert. For the reasons explained hereafter,
Blankenhorn lacks the qualifications to offer opinion
testimony and, in any event, failed to provide cogent
testimony in support of proponents’ factual assertions.

The court concludes that Blankenhorn’s proposed
definition of marriage is “connected to existing data only by the
ipse dixit” of Blankenhorn and accordingly rejects it.


My Latin's rusty, bit I think ipse dixit translates to "I said it".

Blankenhorn did turn out to be a valuable witness, though.

During cross-examination, Blankenhorn was
shown a report produced by his Institute in 2000 explaining the six
dimensions of marriage: (1) legal contract; (2) financial
partnership; (3) sacred promise; (4) sexual union; (5) personal
bond; and (6) family-making bond. When referring to the sixth dimension, a familymaking
bond, Blankenhorn agreed that same-sex couples could “raise”
children.


Really, the man could go into a profitable career as a gay-rights advocate. He's much better at supporting gay rights than he is at making it look bad.

Blankenhorn agreed that
children raised by same-sex couples would benefit if their parents
were permitted to marry. Tr 2803:6-15. Blankenhorn also testified
he wrote and agrees with the statement “I believe that today the
principle of equal human dignity must apply to gay and lesbian
persons. In that sense, insofar as we are a nation founded on this
principle, we would be more American on the day we permitted samesex
marriage than we were the day before.”

Blankenhorn stated he opposes marriage for same-sex
couples because it will weaken the institution of marriage, despite
his recognition that at least thirteen positive consequences would
flow from state recognition of marriage for same-sex couples,
including: (1) by increasing the number of married couples who might be interested in adoption and foster care, same-sex marriage
might well lead to fewer children growing up in state institutions
and more children growing up in loving adoptive and foster
families; and (2) same-sex marriage would signify greater social
acceptance of homosexual love and the worth and validity of samesex
intimate relationships.


Other fun bits:
Protect Marriage is a “broad coalition” of individuals and
organizations, including the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day Saints (the “LDS Church”), the California Catholic
Conference and a large number of evangelical churches.

a. PX2310 About ProtectMarriage.com, Protect Marriage
(2008): Protect Marriage “about” page identifies a
“broad-based coalition” in support of Proposition 8;
b. PX0577 Frank Schubert and Jeff Flint, Passing Prop 8,
Politics (Feb 2009) at 47: “We had the support of
virtually the entire faith community in California.”;
c. Tr 1585:20-1590:2 (Segura: Churches, because of their
hierarchical structure and ability to speak to
congregations once a week, have a “very strong
communication network” with churchgoers. A network of
“1700 pastors” working with Protect Marriage in support
of Proposition 8 is striking because of “the sheer
breadth of the [religious] organization and its level of
coordination with Protect Marriage.”);
d. Tr 1590:23-1591:12 (Segura: An “organized effort” and
“formal association” of religious groups formed the
“broad-based coalition” of Protect Marriage.);
e. Tr 1609:12-1610:6 (Segura: The coalition between the
Catholic Church and the LDS Church against a minority
group was “unprecedented.”);
f. PX2597 Email from Prentice to Lynn Vincent (June 19,
2008): Prentice explains that “[f]rom the initial efforts
in 1998 for the eventual success of Prop 22 in 2000, a
coalition of many organizations has existed, including
evangelical, Catholic and Mormon groups” and identifies
Catholic and evangelical leaders working to pass
Proposition 8;
g. PX0390A Video, Ron Prentice Addressing Supporters of
Proposition 8, Excerpt: Prentice explains the importance
of contributions from the LDS Church, Catholic bishops
and evangelical ministers to the Protect Marriage
campaign;
h. PX0577 Frank Schubert and Jeff Flint, Passing Prop 8,
Politics at 46 (Feb 2009): “By this time, leaders of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints had endorsed
Prop 8 and joined the campaign executive committee. Even though the LDS were the last major denomination to join
the campaign, their members were immensely helpful in
early fundraising, providing much-needed contributions
while we were busy organizing Catholic and Evangelical
fundraising efforts.”


23. The states have always required the parties to give their free
consent to a marriage. Because slaves were considered
property of others at the time, they lacked the legal capacity
to consent and were thus unable to marry. After emancipation,
former slaves viewed their ability to marry as one of the most
important new rights they had gained.

24. Many states, including California, had laws restricting the
race of marital partners so that whites and non-whites could
not marry each other.
a. Tr 228:9-231:3 (Cott: In “[a]s many as 41 states and
territories,” laws placed restrictions on “marriage
between a white person and a person of color.”);
b. Tr 236:17-238:23 (Cott: Racially restrictive marriage
laws “prevented individuals from having complete choice
on whom they married, in a way that designated some
groups as less worthy than other groups[.]” Defenders of
race restrictions argued the laws were “naturally-based
and God’s plan just being put into positive law, the
efforts to undo them met extreme alarm among those who thought these laws were correct. * * * [P]eople who
supported [racially restrictive marriage laws] saw these
as very important definitional features of who could and
should marry, and who could not and should not.”);



Also, the case was likely helped by the plaintiffs having a well-organized set of witnesses. The four people (two couples) who were pressing the suit, four other lay witnesses who testified on other such facts as gay life (One boy was put in therapy to 'correct' his homosexuality. And his mom told him she wishes she'd had an abortion rather than give birth to a gay son). Then nine expert witnesses on history, economics, social sciences, specific economics of California, and religious batshit insanery (Mr. Tam, above, who was called as an adverse witness and was a member of the campaign which passed Prop 8.)

And the defenders of Prop 8 called two witnesses. Well, I say witnesses. One was proven to be grossly inqualified, and the other did a far better job testifying for the passage of sweeping gay rights than he did saying anything against it.
Last edited by Maxus on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Maj »

Maxus wrote:My Latin's rusty, bit I think ipse dixit translates to "I said it".
"He himself said it." Personally, I would translate it as, "Because I said so!"

Nice summary, by the way. I hope Prop 8 stays dead.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
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Post by Maxus »

Maj wrote:
Maxus wrote:My Latin's rusty, bit I think ipse dixit translates to "I said it".
"He himself said it." Personally, I would translate it as, "Because I said so!"

Nice summary, by the way. I hope Prop 8 stays dead.
Some of the sites I've been looking at have said this judge's ruling can't lightly be torn apart, especially when he lists some eighty "Findings of Fact" which are summaries and quotes from past cases, and his decision based on a lot of support that gay-marriage bans do violate the fourteenth amendment.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Psychic Robot wrote:El oh el.
:argh:
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Post by mean_liar »

Psychic Robot wrote:El oh el.
Yes, the bill that was written and debated in the Republican-controlled Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee of the 109th Congress, which never made it out of that Committee, failed in fact because of Democrats. There were 26 cloture motions in 2005, of which 16 dealt with appropriations or nominations, leaving 10. Of those 10, every single cloture motion passed. As of today, 2010 has seen 113 cloture motions filed. Pretending that 2005 Democrats are 2010 Republicans is simple bullshit.

Not only that, but even if such legislation passed, it's doubtful that we'd be seeing anything different. The bubble existed and burst precisely because no one other than a few badass firms like Magnetar gaming the idiots managed to "properly manage[d] their interest rate risk, [have] adequate liquidity and reserves, and control[led] their asset and investment portfolio growth."
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Post by Crissa »

Strangely, the article doesn't mention other requirements the Republican controlled congress threw upon the federally-backed companies; such as keeping up with the market rather than using their own risk models.

While often one bill may change things, that bill wasn't it. The Republicans were trying to sell off what at the time was a profitable endeavor, not regulate it.

-Crissa
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Post by Maj »

[url=http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2010/08/02/daily67.html?t=printable wrote:St. Louis Business Journal[/url]]Genetically modified crops found growing in wild

Researchers found what is believed to be among the first fields of genetically modified crops growing in the wild in patches of canola along freeways and in desolate areas in North Dakota.

...

“These observations indicate feral populations are reproducing and have become established outside of cultivation making this is the first report in the U.S. of established populations of genetically modified organisms in the ‘wild,’” Meredith Schafer with the University of Arkansas and other researchers wrote in their study’s conclusion. “As such, these observations have important implications for the ecology and management of native and weedy species, and as well as for the management of biotech products in the U.S.”
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Post by Maxus »

Take that, Monsato!
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

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Post by Meikle641 »

<Monsato> See that? THIS IS GOVERNMENT THEFT! SUE! SUE!

Honestly, fuck Monsato. I hope this fucks over their patents.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Aren't they trying to make it illegal for farmers to save their seeds from year to year and trying to make it legally mandatory for farmers to buy new seed every growing season?

On one hand, screw'em, on the other I wonder what ecological effect these species will have growing feral like that.
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Post by Crissa »

Well, there are wild versions of everything else we eat, too. But mostly... Screw'em, they've put most seed ricers out of business in the US and Canada.

-Crissa
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Post by Prak »

well, some of these plants have been modified to carry proteins toxic to insects, so there is a possibility of wild gm crops to decimate the population of, say, the monarch butterfly, but it's probably nowhere near the level of danger that greenpeace loonies say it is.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Crissa wrote:Well, there are wild versions of everything else we eat, too. But mostly... Screw'em, they've put most seed ricers out of business in the US and Canada.

-Crissa
I thought Corn was unable to reproduce in the wild due to human tampering for hundreds of years?
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Post by Crissa »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Crissa wrote:Well, there are wild versions of everything else we eat, too. But mostly... Screw'em, they've put most seed ricers out of business in the US and Canada.
I thought Corn was unable to reproduce in the wild due to human tampering for hundreds of years?
Doesn't stop it. People and animals eat corn, and spread its seeds through their inattention. It's not highly successful, certainly not like it is with our help, but it would still be around.

Wandering around downtown we're always finding random plants that have sprung up from a mess not quite cleaned up. There's some growing out of a hole in the stucco of one of the apartment towers.

But I was referring to most grains. Certainly many of our crops would be less than successful in the wild - some because they don't seed at all anymore. But they still exist.

-Crissa
Last edited by Crissa on Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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For my fellow Australians: on Sunrise (it's on their website) there was a televised debate: Australian Sex Party vs. FascistFamily First. HEAVEN OR HELL, LET'S ROCK!

It's comedy gold. FF do so well at being insane that they provide wonderful displays of it on TV.
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Meikle641 wrote:<Monsato> See that? THIS IS GOVERNMENT THEFT! SUE! SUE!

Honestly, fuck Monsato. I hope this fucks over their patents.
They say that they won't sue you when their genetically engineered super-weeds start growing on your property, but if you try to look at them under a microscope they'll sue your pants off!
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Post by Meikle641 »

More on the newest Monsato issue

More here

"You may have figured out the cause of colony collapse disorder. It's actually Monsanto enforcing restraining orders on the bees.

Frankly, I wouldn't put it past Monsanto to actually be behind something like CCD. If they wipe out natural bees, they could launch genetically modified bees that you'd have to buy from Monsanto every year."

I sadly could see this happening.
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Ganbare Gincun wrote: I wonder how long it will take for "TSA Porn" to hit the internet?
Emphasis mine. I have some bad news for you...
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Post by Ganbare Gincun »

Koumei wrote:
Ganbare Gincun wrote: I wonder how long it will take for "TSA Porn" to hit the internet?
Emphasis mine. I have some bad news for you...
Take off every zig for great justice then, I suppose! :lol:
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Post by Crissa »

Here's an update on the credit-report for hiring and not just a potential problem, but a real one.

Like I said, there's no way to know if they pulled the right report, or if the report is even correct. And even if you know what is or isn't correct, getting it fixed is not easy.

If the process has no auditing, how do we really know what credit reporting companies say is true?

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Post by Maj »

I'm not trying to justify the credit agencies because I'm currently mixed up with my next door neighbor who shares the same gender and last name, but I have to say...

If a business pulls a credit report and it comes up with four different social security numbers that should be a clue right there that there's a problem.

Also, don't give your kid a normal name.

And, of course, the obvious: check your credit report and verify the information on it at least once a year.
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